Wednesday, March 09, 2005
An outsider's view of anti-religion
Let me preface this by saying that I'm an atheist, (you knew that already, probably) and I am decidedly an outsider when it comes to religion. I'm not going to pretend I know all the nooks and crannies of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or Hinduism. No, this is a post about the general trends of religion as I see fit; and I think my blogmates will agree to a large extent. I won't say I am speaking for them because that would be a little too presumptuous. However, I am trying to convert those on the fence; in that sense I'm no better than one of those crazy evangelists. But hear me out anyway.
My problems with religion are many and varied. But let's start from the beginning. In the beginning, man was primitive, uneducated, and worst of all, prey. At this point there probably wasn't a need for religion; death was a clear part of life on earth and humans, like all animals, accepted it. Then, societies started to form, and a measure of control was needed over the populace. But as religion represents a measure of control over people, so too does it represent a measure of control to the people. What do I mean by that? Well, belief in God is a powerful thing; I believed in God as a child because that's what everyone told me. But it wasn't just that. Praying to someone who would listen and could actually DO something about it was therapeutic; even after I began to suspect very strongly that there was no God, I found myself praying in particularly worrisome situations. Belief in God is not a totally irrational belief in and of itself. But from an outsider's view, it's a release valve for our worries that we are not in control. And these worries are well founded- we aren't in control. And this is even more true in a complex society than it was when we were hunter-gatherers; we can get laid off, hit by a truck, miss our flights, and get our hearts broken through no real apparent reason to ourselves. When so many things seem out of control it's a natural instinct to think there is a higher power at work; it soothes our nerves when we can't do anything else; and when terrible things happen, it eases the pain by making us think that it served some cosmic purpose.
But I don't want to criticize believers; at its core, belief in God is simply not an arguable point. That's why I'm moving on, to my real problem. To religion.
My main fault with religion is in its inability, or unwillingness to evolve; that will become apparent through most of my criticisms. Christianity, for example, is 2000 years old, and still going strong. But like Broyles said in a comment earlier, it's outgrown its ideals. No longer is modern christianity about social justice, helping the smallest man, and doing as Jesus did. It's about going to Church, having crucifixes on the wall, bedtime prayers, and dressing up for Easter. It's about following the stupid little rules and forgetting the big ones.
Yes, these are gross generalizations; but I am talking about Christianity as an institution; and so there is nothing to do but generalize. Christianity was once about doing good; now it is about faith. Faith that going to church will get you into heaven. All you have to do is believe in Jesus, and what you do here doesn't matter; there are no rules to follow except "have faith". And because of this, religion has become a club that people are born into or join. And if you're not with them, you're against them; because that's what the Bible teaches: have faith, or suffer the consequences. And Christianity isn't alone here; Judaism and Islam are guilty of the same faults wrapped in different paper. And that brings me to me second point.
The arrogance of religion. There are billions of Christians around the world, and they believe that everyone else is going to hell; there are billions of Muslims and millions of Jews who believe the same thing (different wrapping paper of course). And they believe this because they were born into it; it's very much like the millions of Americans who are born into the richest country in the world and then have the gall to tell every other country that they're doing it wrong because they're not doing it our way. Hey, I was born here, and I know that is has nothing to do with anything but dumb luck. I already know that I've got it made living in the US rather than poverty-stricken India; I'm not going to pretend it was because I was somehow divined into the right region/religion by a higher power. I'm going to single out Judaism here because I don't pick on it enough later on, but calling yourself the Chosen people and believing that everyone else is doomed? Wow.
Of course, you can accuse me of the same thing: calling everyone else wrong and myself right. And yes, I'm going to admit to being arrogant in that regard. But I won't be hypocritical about it. And I'm not the one arguing that you're going to suffer if you don't believe what I believe. No, if you don't believe what I believe, I still think we're both going to the same place after we die.
And every religious person has things that they ridicule about other religions; Christians don't understand Muslims inequal treatment of women; Muslims don't understand Christianity's literal and figurative crusades; (many also probably look down about Christianity's westernization and commercialization) I don't understand Judaism's prohibition on pork and shellfish. They all secretly sneer at each other but take a blind eye to their faith's own shortcomings.
Because religions are about tradition, ritual, and history. Many modern people who practice a certain faith don't believe everything that their faith teaches; they say they are doing it for tradition; that's why they fast, or put up decorations. They know the world wasn't created in six days, they know Eve wasn't created by one of Adam's ribs; but they put up with all the falsities because they say their faith has a rich tradition.
To which I say: A rich tradition of what? Of selling out? Of murder, war, death, famine, and horribleness? Christians have the Crusades to look back upon, where they slaughtered countless innocents in the Middle East only to give up the so-called Holy Land? Or can they look back on times when the Church sold sin (indulgences) to the highest bidders? Or when the Pope was nothing more than another political leader, waging war and getting wrapped up in such low 'human' politics? What do Muslims have to look back upon? Centuries of strife, suicide bombings, succession wars and resulting divisiveness? It's a ridiculous thing, to look at faith from an outsider's view.
Insiders, of course, will ridicule my words and say "these faults you point out are not the point of my religion. Christianity wasn't meant to evolve, it wasn't meant to create good, decent people. And those other horrible things are in the past. I don't do those things." Yes, but why ally yourself with something like that? Why can't people quietly believe in a God, and not have to drag thousands of years of horribly outdated ceremony with them? Is it so unreasonable to assume that if there is a god(s), they''ll be somewhat forgiving if you believe in your own way?
But there are going to be people who do think rationally about religion, find that it suits them, makes them happier, keeps them close to their belief in God, and truly do follow the ideals of their religion. I call those people priests and rabbis. This is not directed towards them. And there are going to be those people who still believe that evolution is false, that they are eating the body of Christ every Sunday, that God directed the ball out of the hands of Kurt Warner and into the hands of Isaac Bruce every Sunday as well. This isn't directed to those peole either. Then again, if you're one of those, you haven't read this far anyway. They probably stopped at "I'm an atheist." This is directed towards those people who are casually religious; who live their lives like normal people, yet call themselves religious because they were born into one. These are the people who are not any more moral than atheists; they don't live their life like Jesus or Moses of Muhammed, they're simply normal people. Who somehow believe that their religion is the right one.
But like I said earlier, my problem with religion is its inability to evolve. Like it or not, those Bible pages are always going to say that slavery is OK in war, that women have less rights than men. And the Pope is always going to be a spokesperson for Christianity, when he speaks out about abortion and homosexuality. And very much like the United States, these religions are giant lumbering beasts dragging along their sordid histories, slow to change direction and vulnerable to getting pecked to death by minutiae. (Minutiae like priest sexual abuse and a pope that probably is nothing more than a 90 year old animatronic puppet, or Sunni vs. Shiite violence , or... ok, enough.) They're no longer about the ideals that they once stood so proudly for. How can it become any clearer than it isn't acceptable to kill; yet countless lives are lost each year in the name of religion. How can it become any more obvious that religion should be about peace and understanding?
And because of this, it's become so obvious to any outsider that these religions are not the way to salvation, truth, or happiness. So why can't they see it in their own faith?
My problems with religion are many and varied. But let's start from the beginning. In the beginning, man was primitive, uneducated, and worst of all, prey. At this point there probably wasn't a need for religion; death was a clear part of life on earth and humans, like all animals, accepted it. Then, societies started to form, and a measure of control was needed over the populace. But as religion represents a measure of control over people, so too does it represent a measure of control to the people. What do I mean by that? Well, belief in God is a powerful thing; I believed in God as a child because that's what everyone told me. But it wasn't just that. Praying to someone who would listen and could actually DO something about it was therapeutic; even after I began to suspect very strongly that there was no God, I found myself praying in particularly worrisome situations. Belief in God is not a totally irrational belief in and of itself. But from an outsider's view, it's a release valve for our worries that we are not in control. And these worries are well founded- we aren't in control. And this is even more true in a complex society than it was when we were hunter-gatherers; we can get laid off, hit by a truck, miss our flights, and get our hearts broken through no real apparent reason to ourselves. When so many things seem out of control it's a natural instinct to think there is a higher power at work; it soothes our nerves when we can't do anything else; and when terrible things happen, it eases the pain by making us think that it served some cosmic purpose.
But I don't want to criticize believers; at its core, belief in God is simply not an arguable point. That's why I'm moving on, to my real problem. To religion.
My main fault with religion is in its inability, or unwillingness to evolve; that will become apparent through most of my criticisms. Christianity, for example, is 2000 years old, and still going strong. But like Broyles said in a comment earlier, it's outgrown its ideals. No longer is modern christianity about social justice, helping the smallest man, and doing as Jesus did. It's about going to Church, having crucifixes on the wall, bedtime prayers, and dressing up for Easter. It's about following the stupid little rules and forgetting the big ones.
Yes, these are gross generalizations; but I am talking about Christianity as an institution; and so there is nothing to do but generalize. Christianity was once about doing good; now it is about faith. Faith that going to church will get you into heaven. All you have to do is believe in Jesus, and what you do here doesn't matter; there are no rules to follow except "have faith". And because of this, religion has become a club that people are born into or join. And if you're not with them, you're against them; because that's what the Bible teaches: have faith, or suffer the consequences. And Christianity isn't alone here; Judaism and Islam are guilty of the same faults wrapped in different paper. And that brings me to me second point.
The arrogance of religion. There are billions of Christians around the world, and they believe that everyone else is going to hell; there are billions of Muslims and millions of Jews who believe the same thing (different wrapping paper of course). And they believe this because they were born into it; it's very much like the millions of Americans who are born into the richest country in the world and then have the gall to tell every other country that they're doing it wrong because they're not doing it our way. Hey, I was born here, and I know that is has nothing to do with anything but dumb luck. I already know that I've got it made living in the US rather than poverty-stricken India; I'm not going to pretend it was because I was somehow divined into the right region/religion by a higher power. I'm going to single out Judaism here because I don't pick on it enough later on, but calling yourself the Chosen people and believing that everyone else is doomed? Wow.
Of course, you can accuse me of the same thing: calling everyone else wrong and myself right. And yes, I'm going to admit to being arrogant in that regard. But I won't be hypocritical about it. And I'm not the one arguing that you're going to suffer if you don't believe what I believe. No, if you don't believe what I believe, I still think we're both going to the same place after we die.
And every religious person has things that they ridicule about other religions; Christians don't understand Muslims inequal treatment of women; Muslims don't understand Christianity's literal and figurative crusades; (many also probably look down about Christianity's westernization and commercialization) I don't understand Judaism's prohibition on pork and shellfish. They all secretly sneer at each other but take a blind eye to their faith's own shortcomings.
Because religions are about tradition, ritual, and history. Many modern people who practice a certain faith don't believe everything that their faith teaches; they say they are doing it for tradition; that's why they fast, or put up decorations. They know the world wasn't created in six days, they know Eve wasn't created by one of Adam's ribs; but they put up with all the falsities because they say their faith has a rich tradition.
To which I say: A rich tradition of what? Of selling out? Of murder, war, death, famine, and horribleness? Christians have the Crusades to look back upon, where they slaughtered countless innocents in the Middle East only to give up the so-called Holy Land? Or can they look back on times when the Church sold sin (indulgences) to the highest bidders? Or when the Pope was nothing more than another political leader, waging war and getting wrapped up in such low 'human' politics? What do Muslims have to look back upon? Centuries of strife, suicide bombings, succession wars and resulting divisiveness? It's a ridiculous thing, to look at faith from an outsider's view.
Insiders, of course, will ridicule my words and say "these faults you point out are not the point of my religion. Christianity wasn't meant to evolve, it wasn't meant to create good, decent people. And those other horrible things are in the past. I don't do those things." Yes, but why ally yourself with something like that? Why can't people quietly believe in a God, and not have to drag thousands of years of horribly outdated ceremony with them? Is it so unreasonable to assume that if there is a god(s), they''ll be somewhat forgiving if you believe in your own way?
But there are going to be people who do think rationally about religion, find that it suits them, makes them happier, keeps them close to their belief in God, and truly do follow the ideals of their religion. I call those people priests and rabbis. This is not directed towards them. And there are going to be those people who still believe that evolution is false, that they are eating the body of Christ every Sunday, that God directed the ball out of the hands of Kurt Warner and into the hands of Isaac Bruce every Sunday as well. This isn't directed to those peole either. Then again, if you're one of those, you haven't read this far anyway. They probably stopped at "I'm an atheist." This is directed towards those people who are casually religious; who live their lives like normal people, yet call themselves religious because they were born into one. These are the people who are not any more moral than atheists; they don't live their life like Jesus or Moses of Muhammed, they're simply normal people. Who somehow believe that their religion is the right one.
But like I said earlier, my problem with religion is its inability to evolve. Like it or not, those Bible pages are always going to say that slavery is OK in war, that women have less rights than men. And the Pope is always going to be a spokesperson for Christianity, when he speaks out about abortion and homosexuality. And very much like the United States, these religions are giant lumbering beasts dragging along their sordid histories, slow to change direction and vulnerable to getting pecked to death by minutiae. (Minutiae like priest sexual abuse and a pope that probably is nothing more than a 90 year old animatronic puppet, or Sunni vs. Shiite violence , or... ok, enough.) They're no longer about the ideals that they once stood so proudly for. How can it become any clearer than it isn't acceptable to kill; yet countless lives are lost each year in the name of religion. How can it become any more obvious that religion should be about peace and understanding?
And because of this, it's become so obvious to any outsider that these religions are not the way to salvation, truth, or happiness. So why can't they see it in their own faith?
# posted by Stuart @ 12:21 AM 
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I'm sure I have more to say on this, though a lot of it would sound the same, being a peace-loving atheist, but I'd like to stand up for my people.
There aren't millions of Jews around the world who believe everyone else is going to hell. Jews, for the most part, don't believe in hell. Judaism focuses on life, not afterlife, and though there are some references to a possible hell in the old testament, most jews, including rabbis and jewish scholars, don't interpret it literally as an afterlife of damnation and a positive existence of satan, and even if interpreted in that way, hell is only for bad people and people who don't believe in god, regardless of their method of worship, so its a little more lenient. Sure, there are some here and there who believe that, but considering there are only roughly 15 million jews worldwide, the total numbers are slim.
Numbers aren't the point, though - judaism generally doesn't condemn the rest of the world to death. It is about a way of living life, and yeah, it can be exclusive (chosen people, etc) - but it doesn't see that non-chosenness as a sin - being chosen is considered a burden (and honor) we are to bear.
Also, judaism doesn't have the rich history of death and destruction you mention for christianity and islam. I know you didn't mention judaism there, but it was right after a discussion of judaism and i figured i'd make it more clear too. Judaism has more of a rich history of survival from death and destruction. Unless, of course, you consider maintaining a jewish state for 60 years, including defending from attacks and, yes, being aggressors from time to time too, as on par with crusades and inquisitions.
all that said, i think religion is the biggest evil ever to befall this earth.
There aren't millions of Jews around the world who believe everyone else is going to hell. Jews, for the most part, don't believe in hell. Judaism focuses on life, not afterlife, and though there are some references to a possible hell in the old testament, most jews, including rabbis and jewish scholars, don't interpret it literally as an afterlife of damnation and a positive existence of satan, and even if interpreted in that way, hell is only for bad people and people who don't believe in god, regardless of their method of worship, so its a little more lenient. Sure, there are some here and there who believe that, but considering there are only roughly 15 million jews worldwide, the total numbers are slim.
Numbers aren't the point, though - judaism generally doesn't condemn the rest of the world to death. It is about a way of living life, and yeah, it can be exclusive (chosen people, etc) - but it doesn't see that non-chosenness as a sin - being chosen is considered a burden (and honor) we are to bear.
Also, judaism doesn't have the rich history of death and destruction you mention for christianity and islam. I know you didn't mention judaism there, but it was right after a discussion of judaism and i figured i'd make it more clear too. Judaism has more of a rich history of survival from death and destruction. Unless, of course, you consider maintaining a jewish state for 60 years, including defending from attacks and, yes, being aggressors from time to time too, as on par with crusades and inquisitions.
all that said, i think religion is the biggest evil ever to befall this earth.
# posted by 
: 11:19 AM
: 11:19 AM
I did indeed purposely leave Jews out of the 'awful things' done under religious pretenses section, because I couldn't really thinnk of any good ones. But still, I'd ask Jews to consider this. I suppose that Jews have a history of being oppressed and breaking through these barriers; in that sense they sort of do have a rich tradition. But then it falls back to two things: 1) do you consider yourself a Jew because of the religion or because of the racial implications, and 2) What is your actual involvement in these traditions?
I consider myself Chinese only superficially, not because I identify with their culture, and not because of their history. I consider myself an American before anything else. That said, I don't take responsibility for American OR Chinese traditions- I'm not the one who fought in the civil war, nor am I the one who killed countless Native Americans. I also didn't build the Great Wall of China and didn't invent gunpowder.
I suspect many Jews tie themselves to their religion out of race issues alone (and this is yet something else I have problems with.) And then it comes down to the fact that they're simply choosing their religion because they were born into it.
All that said again, I would consider Judaism the least problematic of the three religions I discussed above; but there are still countless problems with it.
If you want to discuss Judaism as a way of living life (and not so much as a faith), then you have to take a step back and look at it through a practical lens. And that's when it crumbles apart- not eating pork and shellfish, having a bar mitzvah, getting circumcised; these are just ceremonies that have nothing to do with what a practical spiritual way of life should represent. Like Buddhism.
I consider myself Chinese only superficially, not because I identify with their culture, and not because of their history. I consider myself an American before anything else. That said, I don't take responsibility for American OR Chinese traditions- I'm not the one who fought in the civil war, nor am I the one who killed countless Native Americans. I also didn't build the Great Wall of China and didn't invent gunpowder.
I suspect many Jews tie themselves to their religion out of race issues alone (and this is yet something else I have problems with.) And then it comes down to the fact that they're simply choosing their religion because they were born into it.
All that said again, I would consider Judaism the least problematic of the three religions I discussed above; but there are still countless problems with it.
If you want to discuss Judaism as a way of living life (and not so much as a faith), then you have to take a step back and look at it through a practical lens. And that's when it crumbles apart- not eating pork and shellfish, having a bar mitzvah, getting circumcised; these are just ceremonies that have nothing to do with what a practical spiritual way of life should represent. Like Buddhism.
Judaism as a way of life doesn't require strict adherence to kosher eating, etc. There are vague, basic rules in the torah about it, that have spiritual foundation, true. like not cooking a kid in its mothers milk, etc. These general, mostly symbolic rules developed into a longer list of strict rules in the Talmud in order to maintain an identity in the diaspora - to ensure that, no longer living in the same area, jews could still identify each other and had a connection to each other, and a set of practice reinforcing their religion. maybe some will argue this is still needed today, but not me. yeah, it should be abandoned - but it isn't required, and most people who do it choose to as a way to connect with their ancestors, not to fulfil a supernatural command.
same with circumcision - so the story goes, it was to identify each other during battle. i guess they didn't have camo-khakis with jewish star patches on them back then. (or maybe it was a bond of the military before a big battle - can't quite remember).
yes, these fit your gripe with maintaining impractical purposes, but, as i just said, keeping kosher is consciously neither about practicality nor spirituality. and circumcision is just healthy. but the point is that judaism doesn't command a way of life in detailed control of daily activities, like food and cutting skin. it's main focus is on generosity - the 600+ mitzvahs - golden rule, etc. sure, some strange details slipped through the cracks, but i don't think you'd find more than 1 out of 100 juews who would, when asked what judaism means and what it says about how to live, say first (if at all) its about odd diets and cutting penises.
listing bar mitzvah's is just stupid. every culture has some sort of coming of age thing - getting to vote, to drive, legal freedom - bar mitzvah is another benign way of recognizing the entry into the adult community. i'm sure there is something in buddhism too about passing one stage of life into the next, no?
same with circumcision - so the story goes, it was to identify each other during battle. i guess they didn't have camo-khakis with jewish star patches on them back then. (or maybe it was a bond of the military before a big battle - can't quite remember).
yes, these fit your gripe with maintaining impractical purposes, but, as i just said, keeping kosher is consciously neither about practicality nor spirituality. and circumcision is just healthy. but the point is that judaism doesn't command a way of life in detailed control of daily activities, like food and cutting skin. it's main focus is on generosity - the 600+ mitzvahs - golden rule, etc. sure, some strange details slipped through the cracks, but i don't think you'd find more than 1 out of 100 juews who would, when asked what judaism means and what it says about how to live, say first (if at all) its about odd diets and cutting penises.
listing bar mitzvah's is just stupid. every culture has some sort of coming of age thing - getting to vote, to drive, legal freedom - bar mitzvah is another benign way of recognizing the entry into the adult community. i'm sure there is something in buddhism too about passing one stage of life into the next, no?
# posted by : 2:37 PM
: 2:37 PM
that may not have been as clear as i meant. my main point was - many of the nitpicky things about judaism, like kosher, were practical in their adoption, probably aren't anymore today, aren't really part of the fundamental points of the religion, and that is why most are no longer observed nor required. isn't that what you want out of faiths - adaptability, modernization, practicality?
# posted by : 2:47 PM
: 2:47 PM
Like I said, I have fewer problems with Judaism than other faiths; but my main points are the same. First, do you really believe that Jews live a more moral life than Christians or Muslims, that they follow this code better than Muslims follow the Koran? That the Jewish faith has really modernized itself, or simply been watered down by modern values to ignore the worst parts of the Bible? Christianity has evolved too, but mainly from cultural pressures.
Second, you're arguing for it from a cultural perspective; practicing Jewish rituals because you are of Jewish heritage is one thing (it's sort of racist, but I already mentioned it); but following the religion just because you're of Jewish heritage is a different story. And that's the point here; you're saying that many people don't practice it, that makes it de facto non-fundamental. Well, many Catholics practice contraception because they realize that it's stupid not to, but it's still part of the religion. They just choose to ignore some of the stupid parts and not others. My question is, what makes the entire faith thing so appealing if you can simply pick and choose at will?
One thing I have sort of ignored in this whole thing is the sense of community that many people get from churches, mosques, and synagogues. And that's something I don't truly understand; it's like a club where you ally yourself with like-minded people. Like a high-school cafeteria, everyone breaks up into their own groups and doesn't have to sit with the people of different beliefs. And that sense of community may be great for any one individual, but I think it probably promotes a larger divisiveness in the world.
Second, you're arguing for it from a cultural perspective; practicing Jewish rituals because you are of Jewish heritage is one thing (it's sort of racist, but I already mentioned it); but following the religion just because you're of Jewish heritage is a different story. And that's the point here; you're saying that many people don't practice it, that makes it de facto non-fundamental. Well, many Catholics practice contraception because they realize that it's stupid not to, but it's still part of the religion. They just choose to ignore some of the stupid parts and not others. My question is, what makes the entire faith thing so appealing if you can simply pick and choose at will?
One thing I have sort of ignored in this whole thing is the sense of community that many people get from churches, mosques, and synagogues. And that's something I don't truly understand; it's like a club where you ally yourself with like-minded people. Like a high-school cafeteria, everyone breaks up into their own groups and doesn't have to sit with the people of different beliefs. And that sense of community may be great for any one individual, but I think it probably promotes a larger divisiveness in the world.
i think i misstated my point - most of the detailed rituals of judaism are not part of the faith, they are part of the heritage; not part of the religion per se, but part of the cultural tradition. and so they can be practiced or abandoned, and as many are largely abandoned, they are no longer part of judaism. in the same sense that slavery is no longer part of america. i doubt you'd say slavery is still remains a current theme of american culture, but its just ignored or not practiced anymore.
secon - i never claimed, nor would i, that jews live a more moral life than anyone else. i just stated that:
1) judaism focuses on the current life, and trying to live a good one, whereas other faiths such as christianity focus on the afterlife. i don't know enough about christianity to evaluate what it says about this life, but from what little i know, it wants you to live a good moral life too. But in christianity, you only seek forgiveness from god (or jesus?), and in judaism, you need forgiveness from god and from the injured person. again, not a value judgment, just highlighting judaisms focus on current life - a point originally brought up to show that jews don't condemn the rest of the world to eternal hell, as you stated, because judaism isn't so concerned with afterlife.
and 2) judaism's focus on current life, as far as faith goes, focuses more on general big picture stuff. The majority of crazy details comes from jewish law, separate from the allegedly god-given torah, and is an aspect of the secular practice more so than the core faith.
and for one who complained about faiths stuck in outdated, impractical rituals, isn't ignoring and stopping practicing some parts of the past rituals a good thing? why do you now treat it as a bad thing to scrap the bad parts - thats exactly what you were asking for in your original post:
"Why can't people quietly believe in a God, and not have to drag thousands of years of horribly outdated ceremony with them?" and "these religions are giant lumbering beasts dragging along their sordid histories, slow to change direction and vulnerable to getting pecked to death by minutiae."
secon - i never claimed, nor would i, that jews live a more moral life than anyone else. i just stated that:
1) judaism focuses on the current life, and trying to live a good one, whereas other faiths such as christianity focus on the afterlife. i don't know enough about christianity to evaluate what it says about this life, but from what little i know, it wants you to live a good moral life too. But in christianity, you only seek forgiveness from god (or jesus?), and in judaism, you need forgiveness from god and from the injured person. again, not a value judgment, just highlighting judaisms focus on current life - a point originally brought up to show that jews don't condemn the rest of the world to eternal hell, as you stated, because judaism isn't so concerned with afterlife.
and 2) judaism's focus on current life, as far as faith goes, focuses more on general big picture stuff. The majority of crazy details comes from jewish law, separate from the allegedly god-given torah, and is an aspect of the secular practice more so than the core faith.
and for one who complained about faiths stuck in outdated, impractical rituals, isn't ignoring and stopping practicing some parts of the past rituals a good thing? why do you now treat it as a bad thing to scrap the bad parts - thats exactly what you were asking for in your original post:
"Why can't people quietly believe in a God, and not have to drag thousands of years of horribly outdated ceremony with them?" and "these religions are giant lumbering beasts dragging along their sordid histories, slow to change direction and vulnerable to getting pecked to death by minutiae."
# posted by : 7:44 PM
: 7:44 PM
Yes, it is indeed a good thing to pick and choose what you want; but why do you have to choose Judaism or any religion as a starting point? What makes them so appealing OTHER than the fact that it's what you were born with?
All I am trying to say is that people get too tied up in calling themselves jews or christians and not living up to the ideals of the religion. I know you yourself have admitted that no, religious people are not any more moral, but that is a big problem to me.
Here's a question I would ask you to answer, then. What general trends separates a Jew (faith-wise) from a Christian? (other than specific issues such as believing in Jesus vs. not believing) You pointed out one difference in seeking forgiveness from God; but those differences are few are far between. The ideals of the religion are much the same, leaving ceremony, history, and traditions as the main differentiating factors. Could you call yourself Jewish (faith-wise) if you believed the ideals, but didn't celebrate rosh hashanah, observe Yom Kippur and Passover? I honestly don't know, but I suspect the answer is probably not. In fact, if that were true, I'd probably consider myself Jewish.
I think we are agreeing with each other on the main points but disagreeing on Jewish culture vs. Jewish faith issue. Basically, you are pointing out the evolution of Jewish culture, which is a totally separate story. If you choose to follow the heritage of the Jewish people, fast on Yom Kippur, light the menorah, but not believe in god and not follow the ten commandments, those are cultural decisions, and not in the scope of this current debate. In fact you could be born Jewish, celebrate Jewish holidays, and believe in Satan.
But perhaps it really is true that Judaism as a faith has evolved into a decent religion. I'd still ask you to compare it to Buddhism and see who wins on paper. Not that you, specifically, follow the Jewish faith, but it's still an interesting comparison.
(And the Buddhist-coming of age thing? Doesn't exist; unless we're talking about perverted hindu-buddhism, in which I have to plead ignorance.)
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All I am trying to say is that people get too tied up in calling themselves jews or christians and not living up to the ideals of the religion. I know you yourself have admitted that no, religious people are not any more moral, but that is a big problem to me.
Here's a question I would ask you to answer, then. What general trends separates a Jew (faith-wise) from a Christian? (other than specific issues such as believing in Jesus vs. not believing) You pointed out one difference in seeking forgiveness from God; but those differences are few are far between. The ideals of the religion are much the same, leaving ceremony, history, and traditions as the main differentiating factors. Could you call yourself Jewish (faith-wise) if you believed the ideals, but didn't celebrate rosh hashanah, observe Yom Kippur and Passover? I honestly don't know, but I suspect the answer is probably not. In fact, if that were true, I'd probably consider myself Jewish.
I think we are agreeing with each other on the main points but disagreeing on Jewish culture vs. Jewish faith issue. Basically, you are pointing out the evolution of Jewish culture, which is a totally separate story. If you choose to follow the heritage of the Jewish people, fast on Yom Kippur, light the menorah, but not believe in god and not follow the ten commandments, those are cultural decisions, and not in the scope of this current debate. In fact you could be born Jewish, celebrate Jewish holidays, and believe in Satan.
But perhaps it really is true that Judaism as a faith has evolved into a decent religion. I'd still ask you to compare it to Buddhism and see who wins on paper. Not that you, specifically, follow the Jewish faith, but it's still an interesting comparison.
(And the Buddhist-coming of age thing? Doesn't exist; unless we're talking about perverted hindu-buddhism, in which I have to plead ignorance.)
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