Sunday, July 11, 2004
Do we get Rebuttals? Posting in response to K Lim
What pisses me off is the nihilistic attitude you hold towards voting, coupled with the fact you consider the right to vote to be so important you would consider dying for it. Thus you acknowledge you hold democracy and voting to be important, but because your individual vote does not directly determine the outcome, you consider voting to be a waste of time. Either I don’t understand the point you are making, or you are missing the point in terms of the benefits achieved from voting. Or you are being selfish and arrogant in taking a stance that anything you can’t directly control or that doesn’t provide a measurable benefit to yourself is worthless and a waste of time.
Regardless of my feelings about your stance, we have reached this position where we agree that 1) the right to vote and the voting process is a good thing and 2) elections are decided by more than one vote. Since you have decided to take the stance of “humility,” by deciding not to vote, let me try and convince you that you can get enough of a benefit out of voting to make it worth your 25 minutes.
I think this will best be done by explaining why I vote, and thinking from your perspective, what benefits I will get out of voting, since you are right Stu, who I vote for will not determine the election. First of all, I get the satisfaction out of enacting the right granted to me to participate in choosing the governor’s of my country. I consider this right to be more than me checking a box. Rather I gain satisfaction from the symbolic worth my ability to vote represents. This comes from knowing that billions of people, throughout history, have gone through life without being able to vote, being oppressed by elites and rulers. I feel an obligation to them to vote, as well as an obligation to people who have given up their lives so that I can live in a country that can vote, that allows freedom of expression, and that allows me to live as comfortable a life as I do. (Additionally, whether or not your not voting is insulting to people who fought in wars or those who are oppressed is not your decision to make.)
Second, I get satisfaction out of being part of a social movement, a point which I don’t think you understood, possibly because my civil rights analogy wasn’t explained well enough. Social movements happen. Election outcomes vary. The instruments that cause these changes are the actions of individuals. People vote. People cause change, collectively. Elections are the mechanisms for changing those people in power. Pretty basic stuff. One point where we disagree is whether more or fewer people voting is a good or bad thing. Unlike you, who prefers that less people vote to increase the power of the few, I prefer more people participate to increase the power of the collective. You would basically have to disenfranchise the entire population to put enough power in single votes to sway elections. And, as you earlier stated, you are against that. More people voting means more accurate representation of the needs and wants of society, which I think politicians need. The lack of votes from the non-voting population leads to a skewing for politicians of what the population wants. To correct this skewing, I think we need as many people voting as possible. Thus I will vote.
Third, I get satisfaction out of doing what I can. You say, for example, taxes are too high, and whether or not you vote for candidate A or B, taxes will remain high. (I don’t know what your stance is on taxes, I am just using this as an example.) Well, you can either sit and do nothing about it, or you can choose to become active, to participate, to try and change things. For most people, this will not be more than voting, maybe donating money to a candidate, or putting a bumper sticker on their car, or going to an anti-war protest. But that is the way a movement is constructed. A movement becomes a living thing, they change the way people live. I believe that in general; since the non-voting population is in general poorer and younger, our views and wants are underrepresented. This goes for young people especially, as I am one. It frustrates me that many young people feel ignored and against much of what comes out of Washington, and feel they can’t do anything about it. I think we can, and that voting is the most important step. That’s why I try and encourage as many of my friends as possible to vote, to make their voice heard.
So there you go, lots of nice personal benefits that I hope, will change your mind towards voting for you as personally useless.
Regardless of my feelings about your stance, we have reached this position where we agree that 1) the right to vote and the voting process is a good thing and 2) elections are decided by more than one vote. Since you have decided to take the stance of “humility,” by deciding not to vote, let me try and convince you that you can get enough of a benefit out of voting to make it worth your 25 minutes.
I think this will best be done by explaining why I vote, and thinking from your perspective, what benefits I will get out of voting, since you are right Stu, who I vote for will not determine the election. First of all, I get the satisfaction out of enacting the right granted to me to participate in choosing the governor’s of my country. I consider this right to be more than me checking a box. Rather I gain satisfaction from the symbolic worth my ability to vote represents. This comes from knowing that billions of people, throughout history, have gone through life without being able to vote, being oppressed by elites and rulers. I feel an obligation to them to vote, as well as an obligation to people who have given up their lives so that I can live in a country that can vote, that allows freedom of expression, and that allows me to live as comfortable a life as I do. (Additionally, whether or not your not voting is insulting to people who fought in wars or those who are oppressed is not your decision to make.)
Second, I get satisfaction out of being part of a social movement, a point which I don’t think you understood, possibly because my civil rights analogy wasn’t explained well enough. Social movements happen. Election outcomes vary. The instruments that cause these changes are the actions of individuals. People vote. People cause change, collectively. Elections are the mechanisms for changing those people in power. Pretty basic stuff. One point where we disagree is whether more or fewer people voting is a good or bad thing. Unlike you, who prefers that less people vote to increase the power of the few, I prefer more people participate to increase the power of the collective. You would basically have to disenfranchise the entire population to put enough power in single votes to sway elections. And, as you earlier stated, you are against that. More people voting means more accurate representation of the needs and wants of society, which I think politicians need. The lack of votes from the non-voting population leads to a skewing for politicians of what the population wants. To correct this skewing, I think we need as many people voting as possible. Thus I will vote.
Third, I get satisfaction out of doing what I can. You say, for example, taxes are too high, and whether or not you vote for candidate A or B, taxes will remain high. (I don’t know what your stance is on taxes, I am just using this as an example.) Well, you can either sit and do nothing about it, or you can choose to become active, to participate, to try and change things. For most people, this will not be more than voting, maybe donating money to a candidate, or putting a bumper sticker on their car, or going to an anti-war protest. But that is the way a movement is constructed. A movement becomes a living thing, they change the way people live. I believe that in general; since the non-voting population is in general poorer and younger, our views and wants are underrepresented. This goes for young people especially, as I am one. It frustrates me that many young people feel ignored and against much of what comes out of Washington, and feel they can’t do anything about it. I think we can, and that voting is the most important step. That’s why I try and encourage as many of my friends as possible to vote, to make their voice heard.
So there you go, lots of nice personal benefits that I hope, will change your mind towards voting for you as personally useless.
# posted by Marmaniac @ 2:18 PM 
Comments:
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Patrick, there are a lot of things that are more important in theory than in practice. Voting is one of these things. I don't think my vote is important, but taking away that right is significant.
And by the way, everyone says that people died for the right to vote, but it was much more than that: freedom of press, speech, pursuit of happiness, right to bear arms. The right to vote is important, but the vote is not important. You have already acquiesced on this issue, so why are you trying to back out on it now? We both agree that the vote itself is not important. So why bother trying to argue otherwise?
How can you not understand this point? My vote doesn't matter, so I don't bother with it! There are other reasons, I admit, but that is the main one.
And yes, I am being selfish with my time. Everyone is selfish with their time. To pretend that you (or anyone else) do things always with the greater good in mind is total bullshit and I won't tolerate you calling me arrogant just because I DON'T do something that I feel is a waste of time.
Lastly, like I said earlier: IF YOU ENJOY VOTING, then do it. Apparently you like to misread my arguments and simplify it as selfish and stupid. If knowing that you vote makes you happy and proud to be an American, do it. I am happy to be an American for other reasons, like free speech and freedom of religion. And like I said, people fighting in wars did not fight for our right to vote. They fought for a lot more. And sometimes, whether you want to believe it or not, they fought because they were told to. And some people died for the right to bear arms. Does this mean I am insulting them by not owning a gun? No, I have a choice whether or not to vote, and I have a choice whether I want to own a gun.
Lastly, way to go, you vote because it makes you feel good. Fine. Once again, if you enjoy voting and being part of the process, good. I am not going to criticize anyone for voting. By all means feel free. But trying to make everyone vote just because you do, is an us vs. them argument in the spirit of religious zeal. I don't have to vote to be a contributing member of society.
So do what you can, vote Kerry, give money to charities, put signs on your front line. But you don't have to vote, no matter what anyone tells you.
And by the way, everyone says that people died for the right to vote, but it was much more than that: freedom of press, speech, pursuit of happiness, right to bear arms. The right to vote is important, but the vote is not important. You have already acquiesced on this issue, so why are you trying to back out on it now? We both agree that the vote itself is not important. So why bother trying to argue otherwise?
How can you not understand this point? My vote doesn't matter, so I don't bother with it! There are other reasons, I admit, but that is the main one.
And yes, I am being selfish with my time. Everyone is selfish with their time. To pretend that you (or anyone else) do things always with the greater good in mind is total bullshit and I won't tolerate you calling me arrogant just because I DON'T do something that I feel is a waste of time.
Lastly, like I said earlier: IF YOU ENJOY VOTING, then do it. Apparently you like to misread my arguments and simplify it as selfish and stupid. If knowing that you vote makes you happy and proud to be an American, do it. I am happy to be an American for other reasons, like free speech and freedom of religion. And like I said, people fighting in wars did not fight for our right to vote. They fought for a lot more. And sometimes, whether you want to believe it or not, they fought because they were told to. And some people died for the right to bear arms. Does this mean I am insulting them by not owning a gun? No, I have a choice whether or not to vote, and I have a choice whether I want to own a gun.
Lastly, way to go, you vote because it makes you feel good. Fine. Once again, if you enjoy voting and being part of the process, good. I am not going to criticize anyone for voting. By all means feel free. But trying to make everyone vote just because you do, is an us vs. them argument in the spirit of religious zeal. I don't have to vote to be a contributing member of society.
So do what you can, vote Kerry, give money to charities, put signs on your front line. But you don't have to vote, no matter what anyone tells you.
Stu, while I mostly agree that a single vote is unimportant, I think you go astray in criticizing marmar for trying to get you to vote. You said it yourself: "if I had 538 minions following me around doing what I did, perhaps I could have singlehandedly changed the face of history." Now, it seems you wrote this in jest, but that is exactly marmar's goal. He's doing more than just voting - he's trying to get everyone he knows to vote to. And that does make a difference. If he convinces 30 people to vote - is that worthwhile? And what if of those 30, he excited many to get their siblings/friends/cousins to vote, and some of those do the same - is that more worthwhile? You see, voting in itself is mostly useless save the smbolism and worth of acting out our rights. But its the first step towards getting more and more people excited to participate. If you decide to vote, chances are you'll talk about politics a bit with people, and that can start a reaction that goes to unknown lenghts.
# posted by 
: 9:01 PM
: 9:01 PM
Yes, I totally agree. In fact we had the same discussion earlier. Marmar almost convinced me that I should go out and convince other people to vote, and to convince people to convince other people. But you know what? I am not that guy. I'll admit that right now. And like we both said, social change comes from some forerunners, like Dr. King and such. If I were the Dr. King of voting, then yes, perhaps I could convince other people to vote and convince other people to vote. But see, that is my whole point!
Let's say I convinced 30 people to vote, and those 30 people convinced 30 people to vote. I've done a hell of a job! AND IT STILL WOULDN'T MATTER IF I DIDN'T VOTE. I would just be a hypocrite if I did that. But still, the take-home lesson is that what you do outside of the vote matters.
Let's say I convinced 30 people to vote, and those 30 people convinced 30 people to vote. I've done a hell of a job! AND IT STILL WOULDN'T MATTER IF I DIDN'T VOTE. I would just be a hypocrite if I did that. But still, the take-home lesson is that what you do outside of the vote matters.
I agreed with you that it is pretty useless to vote. I mentioned the getting people to vote thing because you criticized marmar for "trying to make everyone else vote just because [he] does," while admitting earlier and in your most recent comment that that is a worthwhile effort.
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# posted by : 11:29 PM
: 11:29 PM << Home
